tm dot μ dot ν: Episcopal Bishops... and other thoughts

August 06, 2003

Episcopal Bishops... and other thoughts

The Episcopal Church has elected an openly homosexual man to the bishopric of New Hampshire.

The denomination has committed two serious errors. Firstly, it has repudiated the clear Biblical command not to be in fellowship who claims to be a Christian but does not follow Christian teachings. Note that the Bible doesn't say that we shouldn't hang out with nonbelievers; but those who claim to follow the teachings of the Bible but don't are to be lovingly disciplined. And the Bible clearly teaches that homosexual practice is a sin.

Secondly, even if one claimed that passages pertaining to homosexuality are misinterpreted (which is a valid claim, if one I don't agree with), the denomination is still wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that those who feel free to do a certain thing (the biblical example is the eating of food sacrificed to idols) should forgo that freedom when around other believers who believe it's sinful. The stronger Christian should not offend others by his actions. Thus even if gays are right, they shouldn't continue to push the issue but should work to change the hearts and minds of their brethren in loving ways.

No matter your views on whether gay marriage should be legal, the Christian faith has always held homosexual practice a sin and it's disheartening to see liberals fleeing so quickly from orthodox doctrine.

As an aside, it's interesting how down-to-earth the Bible is. Even if you believe it's only a human document you must concede that it is a marvelous testimony to human nature. On the surface, it seems to support slavery and the subordination of women, but if you read deeper you find that it makes radical pronouncements of the equality of all men (men in the inclusive sense :)). But the Bible recognizes the perils of power; far from advocating seemingly justified revolution in light of the injustices of the ancient world, it advises its adherents to live blameless and pure lives -- to be an example, changing societal and institutional evils by non-violent, passive means. Its political philosophy is "moderation in all things". That's a good reminder in a time when government, the free market, unrestricted freedoms and theocratic law are alternately held up as the magic cure for today's problems.

Posted by Tim at August 6, 2003 01:58 AM

Comments

Flawed logic in your second arguement.

If a believer believes in a certain freedom that offends others he should forgo that freedom so as to not offend.

The bishop was elected by a solid majority. Of the minority that voted against, a certain percentage will have done so not because they think he is sinful, but because they fear the possible backlash. Hence, the believer is not in the company of those who would be offended and therefore has nothing to forgo.

Posted by: a different Bill at August 6, 2003 11:08 AM

OK guys, here is my thought:

FORNICATION is sexual intercourse between unmarried people.

1 Cor 6:18-FLEE FORNICATION. EVERY SIN THAT A MAN DOETH IS WITHOUT THE BODY; BUT HE THAT COMMITTETH FORNICATION SINNETH AGAINST HIS OWN BODY.

1 Cor 10:8-NEITHER LET US COMMIT FORNICATION, AS SOME OF THEM COMMITTED, AND FELL IN ONE DAY THREE AND TWENTY THOUSAND.

1 Thes 4:3-FOR THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD, EVEN YOUR SANCTIFICATION, THAT YE SHOULD ABSTAIN FROM FORNICATION.

Acts 15:20-BUT THAT WE WRITE UNTO THEM, THAT THEY ABSTAIN…FROM FORNICATION.

Acts 15:29-THAT YE ABSTAIN…FROM FORNICATION.

Acts 21:25-…KEEP THEMSELVES…FROM FORNICATION.

Col 3:5-(PUT TO DEATH, THEREFORE, WHATEVER BELONGS TO YOUR EARTHLY NATURE-NIV); FORNICATION (or sexual immorality), UNCLEANNESS (or impurity), INORDINATE AFFECTION (or lust), EVIL CONCUPISCENCE (or desires), AND COVETOUSNESS (or greed), WHICH IS IDOLATRY.

1 Cor 5:1-IT IS REPORTED COMMONLY THAT THERE IS FORNICATION AMONG YOU, AND SUCH FORNICATION AS IS NOT SO MUCH AS NAMED AMONG THE GENTILES, THAT ONE SHOULD HAVE HIS FATHER'S WIFE.

1 Cor 6:13-NOW THE BODY IS NOT FOR FORNICATION, BUT FOR THE LORD; AND THE LORD FOR THE BODY.

2 Cor 12:21-AND LEST, WHEN I COME AGAIN, MY GOD WILL HUMBLE ME AMONG YOU, AND THAT I SHALL BEWAIL (or be grieved over) MANY WHICH HAVE SINNED ALREADY (or earlier), AND HAVE NOT REPENTED OF THE UNCLEANNESS AND FORNICATION AND LASCIVIOUSNESS WHICH THEY HAVE COMMITTED.

Gal 5:19-NOW THE WORKS OF THE FLESH ARE MANIFEST, WHICH ARE THESE; ADULTERY, FORNICATION, UNCLEANNESS, LASCIVIOUSNESS. Note both adultery and fornication are put in the same category.

Eph 5:3-BUT FORNICATION, AND ALL UNCLEANNESS, OR COVETOUSNESS, LET IT NOT BE ONCE NAMED AMONG YOU, AS BECOMETH SAINTS.

Rev 2:20-NOTWITHSTANDING I HAVE A FEW THINGS AGAINST THEE, BECAUSE THOU SUFFEREST THAT WOMAN JEZEBEL, WHICH CALLETH HERSELF A PROPHETESS, TO TEACH AND TO SEDUCE MY SERVANTS TO COMMIT FORNICATION, AND TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED UNTO IDOLS.

Rev 2:21-AND I GAVE HER SPACE TO REPENT OF HER FORNICATION; AND SHE REPENTED NOT.

Rev 9:21-NEITHER REPENTED THEY OF THEIR MURDERS, NOR OF THEIR SORCERIES, NOR OF THEIR FORNICATION, NOR OF THEIR THEFTS.

God clearly and unmistakably shows in Romans that those who practice homosexuality and lesbianism are worthy of death. They shall surely perish unless they repent. It is written:
Ro 1:18-32-FOR THE WRATH OF GOD IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN AGAINST ALL UNGODLINESS AND UNRIGHTEOUSNESS (or wickedness) OF MEN, WHO HOLD (or suppress) THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS (or by their wickedness); BECAUSE THAT WHICH MAY BE KNOWN (ABOUT) GOD IS MANIFEST IN (or plain to) THEM; FOR GOD HATH SHEWED (or made) IT UNTO THEM. FOR THE INVISIBLE THINGS OF HIM FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD ARE CLEARLY SEEN, BEING UNDERSTOOD BY THE THINGS THAT ARE MADE, EVEN HIS ETERNAL POWER AND GODHEAD (or divine nature); SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE: BECAUSE THAT, WHEN THEY KNEW GOD, THEY (NEITHER GLORIFIED HIM) AS GOD, NEITHER WERE THANKFUL; BUT BECAME VAIN (or futile) IN THEIR IMAGINATIONS (or thinking), AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED. (ALTHOUGH THEY CLAIMED) TO BE WISE, THEY BECAME FOOLS, AND CHANGED THE GLORY OF THE UNCORRUPTIBLE (or immortal) GOD INTO AN IMAGE (to look like) CORRUPTIBLE MAN, AND TO BIRDS, AND (ANIMALS AND REPTILES). WHEREFORE GOD ALSO GAVE THEM (OVER) TO (SINFUL DESIRES) THROUGH THE LUSTS (or sexual impurity) OF THEIR OWN HEARTS, TO DISHONOUR THEIR OWN BODIES BETWEEN THEMSELVES (or for the degrading of their bodies with one another-NIV):
25-(THEY) CHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD INTO A LIE, AND WORSHIPPED AND SERVED THE CREATURE (or created things) (RATHER) THAN THE CREATOR, WHO IS BLESSED FOR EVER. AMEN. FOR THIS CAUSE GOD GAVE THEM UP UNTO VILE AFFECTIONS (or shameful lusts): FOR EVEN THEIR WOMEN DID CHANGE THE NATURAL USE INTO THAT WHICH IS AGAINST NATURE (or their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones-NIV): The women became lesbians. AND (IN THE SAME WAY) THE MEN, LEAVING THE NATURAL USE OF THE WOMAN (or the men also abandoned natural relations with women-NIV), BURNED IN THEIR LUST (or were inflamed with lust) ONE TOWARD ANOTHER; MEN (COMMITTED INDECENT ACTS WITH OTHER MEN-NIV), AND RECEIVING IN THEMSELVES (THE DUE PENALTY FOR THEIR PERVERSION-NIV). AND EVEN AS THEY DID NOT (THINK IT WORTHWHILE) TO RETAIN (THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD), GOD GAVE THEM OVER TO A REPROBATE (or depraved) MIND, TO DO (WHAT OUGHT NOT TO BE DONE-NIV); BEING FILLED WITH ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS (or every kind of wickedness), FORNICATION, WICKEDNESS, COVETOUSNESS, MALICIOUSNESS; FULL OF ENVY, MURDER, DEBATE, DECEIT, MALIGNITY; WHISPERERS (or gossips),
30-BACKBITERS (or slanderers), HATERS OF GOD, DESPITEFUL, PROUD (or arrogant), BOASTERS, (THEY INVENT WAYS OF DOING EVIL-NIV), (THEY DISOBEY THEIR PARENTS-NIV), WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING (or senseless), COVENANTBREAKERS (or faithless), WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION (or homosexual), IMPLACABLE (or heartless), UNMERCIFUL (or ruthless): WHO KNOWING THE JUDGMENT OF GOD (or although they know God’s righteous decree-NIV), THAT THEY WHICH COMMIT SUCH THINGS ARE WORTHY OF (or deserve) DEATH, (THEY NOT ONLY CONTINUE TO DO THESE THINGS BUT ALSO-NIV) HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM (or also approve of those who practice-NIV) THEM.

God’s Word clearly and unmistakably states in 1 Cor chapter 6-NEITHER…ADULTERERS,…NOR HOMOSEXUAL OFFENDERS…SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. It is God’s Word that shall judge people in the last day. It is these very words that shall judge many in the last day. People can twist God’s Word and say it does not mean what it says, but that changes nothing. Unrepentant adulterers and homosexuals will perish.
1 Cor 6:9,10-KNOW YE NOT THAT THE UNRIGHTEOUS (or wicked) SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? BE NOT DECEIVED: NEITHER FORNICATORS (or the sexually immoral), NOR IDOLATERS, NOR ADULTERERS, NOR EFFEMINATE (or male prostitutes), NOR (HOMOSEXUAL OFFENDERS-NIV), NOR THIEVES, NOR COVETOUS (or greedy), NOR DRUNKARDS, NOR REVILERS or slanderers), NOR EXTORTIONERS (or swindlers), SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

God destroyed Sodom and the cities of the plain for wickedness and homosexuality. The message is clear—don't do it.
Gen 19:4-17, 24-26-BEFORE THEY HAD GONE TO BED, ALL THE MEN FROM EVERY PART OF THE CITY OF SODOM—BOTH YOUNG AND OLD—SURROUNDED THE HOUSE. THEY CALLED TO LOT, "WHERE ARE THE MEN WHO CAME TO YOU TONIGHT? BRING THEM OUT TO US SO THAT WE CAN HAVE SEX WITH THEM." These were homosexual men. LOT WENT OUTSIDE TO MEET THEM AND SHUT THE DOOR BEHIND HIM AND SAID, "NO, MY FRIENDS. DON'T DO THIS WICKED THING (NIV). Lot clearly shows homosexuality is a wicked thing. BEHOLD NOW, I HAVE TWO DAUGHTERS WHICH HAVE NOT KNOWN MAN; LET ME, I PRAY YOU, BRING THEM OUT UNTO YOU, AND DO YE TO THEM AS IS GOOD IN YOUR EYES: ONLY UNTO THESE MEN DO NOTHING; FOR THEREFORE CAME THEY UNDER THE SHADOW OF MY ROOF. LOOK, I HAVE TWO DAUGHTERS WHO HAVE NEVER SLEPT WITH A MAN. LET ME BRING THEM OUT TO YOU, AND YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU LIKE WITH THEM. BUT DON'T DO ANYTHING TO THESE MEN, FOR THEY HAVE COME UNDER THE PROTECTION OF MY ROOF." "GET OUT OF OUR WAY," THEY REPLIED. AND THEY SAID, "THIS FELLOW CAME HERE AS AN ALIEN, AND NOW HE WANTS TO PLAY THE JUDGE! WE'LL TREAT YOU WORSE THAN THEM." THEY KEPT BRINGING PRESSURE ON LOT AND MOVED FORWARD TO BREAK DOWN THE DOOR. These homosexual men did not want women.
10-BUT THE MEN INSIDE REACHED OUT AND PULLED LOT BACK INTO THE HOUSE AND SHUT THE DOOR. THEN THEY STRUCK THE MEN WHO WERE AT THE DOOR OF THE HOUSE, YOUNG AND OLD, WITH BLINDNESS SO THAT THEY COULD NOT FIND THE DOOR. THE TWO MEN SAID TO LOT, "DO YOU HAVE ANYONE ELSE HERE—SONS-IN-LAW, SONS OR DAUGHTERS, OR ANYONE ELSE IN THE CITY WHO BELONGS TO YOU? GET THEM OUT OF HERE, BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO DESTROY THIS PLACE. THE OUTCRY TO THE LORD AGAINST ITS PEOPLE IS SO GREAT THAT HE HAS SENT US TO DESTROY IT." SO LOT WENT OUT AND SPOKE TO HIS SONS-IN-LAW, WHO WERE PLEDGED TO MARRY HIS DAUGHTERS. HE SAID, "HURRY AND GET OUT OF THIS PLACE, BECAUSE THE LORD IS ABOUT TO DESTROY THE CITY!" BUT HIS SONS-IN-LAW THOUGHT HE WAS JOKING.
15-WITH THE COMING OF DAWN, THE ANGELS URGED LOT, SAYING, "HURRY! TAKE YOUR WIFE AND YOUR TWO DAUGHTERS WHO ARE HERE, OR YOU WILL BE SWEPT AWAY WHEN THE CITY IS PUNISHED." Clearly, homosexuality is such a great sin in the eyes of God that He determined to punish and destroy the entire city. WHEN HE HESITATED, THE MEN GRASPED HIS HAND AND THE HANDS OF HIS WIFE AND OF HIS TWO DAUGHTERS AND LED THEM SAFELY OUT OF THE CITY, FOR THE LORD WAS MERCIFUL TO THEM. AS SOON AS THEY HAD BROUGHT THEM OUT, ONE OF THEM SAID, "FLEE FOR YOUR LIVES! DON'T LOOK BACK, AND DON'T STOP ANYWHERE IN THE PLAIN! FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS OR YOU WILL BE SWEPT AWAY!"
24-THEN THE LORD RAINED DOWN BURNING SULFUR ON SODOM AND GOMORRAH—FROM THE LORD OUT OF THE HEAVENS. THUS HE OVERTHREW THOSE CITIES AND THE ENTIRE PLAIN, INCLUDING ALL THOSE LIVING IN THE CITIES—AND ALSO THE VEGETATION IN THE LAND. Such is the judgment of the Lord on wickedness and homosexuality. BUT LOT'S WIFE LOOKED BACK, AND SHE BECAME A PILLAR OF SALT (NIV).

1 Ki 14:24-AND THERE WERE ALSO SODOMITES IN THE LAND: AND THEY DID ACCORDING TO ALL THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE NATIONS WHICH THE LORD CAST OUT BEFORE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL.

Note: May the reader be informed that we do not hate homosexuals, neither do we in any way support or advocate violence against them. The purpose of addressing this issue is to inform the reader that according to the Bible (which is the holy Word of God and the final Authority) homosexuality is sin. It is not an acceptable, alternative lifestyle as is being promoted in this generation. In recent years, a number of homosexuals have come to realize this and have turned from their sins, repented of their old ways, having received the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and are now serving God in truth. Some even have ministries that reach out to homosexuals. If you are involved in the sin of homosexuality and want out, there is hope for you through Jesus Christ. However, you must completely forsake this practice and humble yourself before God in truth.

Posted by: trace at August 6, 2003 03:07 PM

Trace-
I understand your viewpoint, and even agree with it in some ways; nevertheless, your post is written in an argumentative spirit I'm trying to avoid here. The issue is a sensitive one, please treat it more delicately. Please recognize, as well, that this blog is open to both Christians and nonbelievers, the latter of whom will neither be convinced by your Scripture citations nor shown God's love by your attitude. Remember that 1 Corinthians 9, which you quoted in part, notes many other sins which you have no doubt committed and goes on to say "And that is what some of you were." I don't deny that homosexual activity is a sin -- that's the whole point of my post -- but I think the Church needs to recognize that there are many other fronts on which we need to fight as well. If you disagree, great, but argue calmly and without inflammatory remarks or I will ban you.

Posted by: Tim the Michigander at August 6, 2003 07:38 PM

Bill, I think you've missed my point: I was showing that, even if I were wrong and homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, those who push it in the church are not justified as long as the issue is contentious enough to be opposed by many Bible-believing Christians. It's analogous to the Lawrence decision: many who believed the law was unfair still thought the top-down decision imposed by the Court was wrong.

Posted by: Tim the Michigander at August 6, 2003 07:42 PM

How do you see this in light of 1 Timothy 3:1-7? By reading various Commentaries or Study Bibles, this is open to some interpretation. Besides, it was written to instruct early Church founders. However, it is Scripture, and therefore still applies today in its essence.

I think we can take for granted that the Bible calls homosexuality a sin. It also calls many, many other behaviors a sin. Like heterosexual lust. How many Christians in a position of leadership in the Church are guilty of this sin? This doesn't stop them from getting elected. Maybe it should if we hold Church leadership to a high standard as 1 Timothy 3 talks about. Maybe we just can't find pure enough persons any longer to represent true Church leadership. Maybe we have all caved in to sin a little too much in modern times. It gets easier and easier nowadays. Maybe we should really focus on what the Bible really says sins are, not what their symptoms are. Maybe we should start with the Tem Commandments, which I dare say most people cannot even recite. I fail to follow these in their entirety each day. I am weak and I know it. I can't even follow the two greatest ones; love of God and love of others. I constantly react in a self centered manner, without loving thoughts, and without regard for what God sees every day. We all do this to some degree. We are all sinners. Lets try to focus on this small bit of the Bible, and then progress from there.

My two cents worth!

Posted by: sammy small at August 6, 2003 11:12 PM

I agree completely, Sammy. If Christians were more eager to serve and less eager to denounce, a lot of hearts could be turned a lot more quickly. Not that we should do anything less than flee from sin, not that we should stop naming evil for what it is: but rather than merely shouting into the wind we need to be living by example. (OK, that sentence fulfills my mixed metaphor allowance for the week...)

Posted by: Tim the Michigander at August 7, 2003 01:48 AM

Tim the Michigander, what troubles me about this whole issue is the fact that this fella is not just stepping aside in light of all the pain this issue is causing the members of his church. Your point - "The stronger Christian should not offend others by his actions. Thus even if gays are right, they shouldn't continue to push the issue but should work to change the hearts and minds of their brethren in loving ways." is right on. Step down, heal the church, and work to heal the schism.

Posted by: truheart at August 8, 2003 04:43 PM

What we need to do is identify these cocksuckers, pile them up, hose them down with gasoline and burn them.

Recent scientific evidence indicates that you can catch aids by shaking hands with a fag who has recently inserted his hand into an aids infected asshole. And, of course, they have all recently done that. God bless America.

Posted by: Bart at August 9, 2003 03:07 AM

Hello, pretend troll who is either Collins or Bill, probably the former. Have fun.

Update: Hmm, guess I was wrong about that, since my little amigo seems to be hailing from Mora, Minnesota. You better not be a real troll, buddy, or I will ban your butt from here back to Collins' blog on LI where you and your ilk belong. If you're a troll.

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