From World Net Daily via Professor Koyzis, some Southern Baptists are calling
for the denomination to take a stand against government schools; their proposed resolution reads in part:
"Government schools are by their own confession humanistic and secular in their instruction, [and] the education offered by the government schools is officially Godless," the measure states.I agree. Well actually I think I would support complete withdrawal of the State from education. But then, I'm a recovering libertarian. (I take it one day at a time, and remember the mantra "the State is, occasionally, your friend.)Noting that "the millions of children in government schools spend seven hours a day, 180 days a year being taught that God is irrelevant to every area of life," the resolution says, "Many Christian children in government schools are converted to an anti-Christian worldview rather than evangelizing their schoolmates."
I suspect that, from conversations I've had with him, a certain person who reads my blog, but has not ever (I think) commented, will disagree with my position on Christian children in government schools. Maybe he will comment now....
Posted by Tim at May 9, 2004 12:22 AMHehe ok Timmy, I'll take your bait. I can't quite remember where you stand completely on this issue, but I do have a few problems with the SBC's view.
"The authors use Scripture in the resolution to argue those Baptists who trust the public-school system with their children are being disobedient to God."
I read some of the scripture passages in the accompanying article. While it is true that parents must be careful in the way in which they bring up their children, to say that the Baptist parents who send their kids to public school are disobeying God is quite an outrageous claim. That would mean many godly parents I know including my own have been blatantly disobeying God all these years. Heh well maybe the fact my parents are not Southern Baptists makes it ok...or worse ;)
"Many Christian children in government schools are converted to an anti-Christian worldview rather than evangelizing their schoolmates."
A pretty sweeping statement don't you think. One could easily say that many Christian children in Christian school are converted to a passive or non-existent Christian worldview which in some ways is much worse than an anti-Christian one.
Also I like how they mention about evangelizing schoolmates yet fail to mention how these schoolmates would be evangelized with all the Christian students gone from the schools. I know from personal experience that the non-Christian public school kids will be not be dying to hang out and talk to the privately and homeschooled Christian kids beacuse well many of my non-Christian school peers did not think so highly of private school kids and especially not homeschooled kids.
This is not to say that private Christian schools and homeschooling (is that one word?) is a bad thing. On the contrary, I admire parents who homeschool their kids as long as they make sure they're networked well with other kids so as not to develop social problems later on in life.
Furthermore, I now know quite a few people who were educated in a private Christian school and they are fine people with a passion for God. At the same time, there are plenty of people I know who went through the public education system and are just as fine.
"He says he views the issue as one of 'spiritual blindness,' noting that roughly 85 percent of Christians send their children to government schools.
'If you had a congregation where 85 percent of the people had a drug problem or an adultery problem, you'd hear about it from the pulpit,' he said, 'and yet in most churches right now, this is an issue that's not discussed.'"
The comparison of Christian parents sending their kids to public school to a drug problem or adultery is very off and somewhat offensive I feel. For reasons stated above, I do not think parents are disobeying God by sending their kids to public school.
Yea so as a whole, I must say I soundly disagree with what the SBC is saying. Timmy, I'm sure your not surprised at my stance and I will be the first to admit that having been educated in the public school sustem my whole life until going to Redeemer, I am biased. However, there are benefits to both styles of education and to just say Christian children should go to Christian schools is a pretty big statement that ignores a lot of factors such as monetary issues and such.
From my own personal experience, I am glad that I was also exposed to the world and made a lot of non-Christian friends because once you are educated, you must live in the world and interact with non-Christians, especially if you are to evangelize which is what we are all called to do. Now I know many students who were educated in Christian schools were not just inside the Christian bubble and were exposed to the world and have non-Christian friends. You would probably argue that it is up to the parent to make sure their child is not just kept in the Christian bubble. But in the same way that there is an expectation for those parents to make sure their child is not sheltered, I think there is an expectation for parents of publicly educated Christians to make sure their child is brought up ina biblical manner with sound biblical teaching. If we can allow the first type of parents to meet that expectation, I don't see why we cannot allow the second type of parents to do so as well.
Posted by: Certain Person at May 9, 2004 05:58 PMThings in quotes are from the proposed SBC resolution; normal text is Jehan's; indented text is mine [Tim's].
"The authors use Scripture in the resolution to argue those Baptists who trust the public-school system with their children are being disobedient to God."
I read some of the scripture passages in the accompanying article. While it is true that parents must be careful in the way in which they bring up their children, to say that the Baptist parents who send their kids to public school are disobeying God is quite an outrageous claim. That would mean many godly parents I know including my own have been blatantly disobeying God all these years. Heh well maybe the fact my parents are not Southern Baptists makes it ok...or worse ;)
Yeah, using language like "disobeying God" is harsh. It's an area of Christian freedom... but I do think that Christian schools are better."Many Christian children in government schools are converted to an anti-Christian worldview rather than evangelizing their schoolmates."
A pretty sweeping statement don't you think. One could easily say that many Christian children in Christian school are converted to a passive or non-existent Christian worldview which in some ways is much worse than an anti-Christian one.
I don't think so. It's not that government schools actively attack Christian doctrines like, say, the Fall or the Atonement. Rather they restrict the area over which 'religion' can be an authority. That is, they separate the world into the area of private morality, personal decisions and so on, which can be governed by your faith, and the public sphere, in which we are required to adhere to 'secular' ideals. Witness the current controversy (here in the States, anyway) over whether Democratic Presidential candidate John Kerry, who claims he's a devout Catholic, should be allowed to take Mass. He says he's personally opposed to abortion, but that he cannot allow his personal faith and convictions to govern his public choices as a Senator (and, if elected, as President). That is, he accepts the withdrawal of modernist Christianity into the private area of conduct. Try writing a letter to the editor of most newspapers using Scripture to prove some point. Likely even most Christians will reject your argument as not adhering to the rational standards for public debate.
Also I like how they mention about evangelizing schoolmates yet fail to mention how these schoolmates would be evangelized with all the Christian students gone from the schools. I know from personal experience that the non-Christian public school kids will be not be dying to hang out and talk to the privately and homeschooled Christian kids beacuse well many of my non-Christian school peers did not think so highly of private school kids and especially not homeschooled kids.
I'd argue that government schools promote this in two ways: firstly, I've never been in a non-Christian-school civics, government or history class, but I assume explicit emphasis would be placed on the supposed religious neutrality of the public square. And secondly, by its structure it assumes that all points of view are equal. At least here in the States, any religious group of students can begin a club or whatever in their public school, and the school is required to accept them as valid. This is relativism.
I don't know of anyone in my school who didn't know non-Christians, whether from their neighbo(u)rhood or other social groups or what have you. Yeah, there's a risk that Christians will 'ghettoize' themselves. But in North America, at least, Christians are in the minority. I think the danger of assimilation into the culture is more strong than the danger of isolation from it, especially for elementary and junior high kids who are still learning to be discerning (not that that process ever ends, of course).This is not to say that private Christian schools and homeschooling (is that one word?) is a bad thing. On the contrary, I admire parents who homeschool their kids as long as they make sure they're networked well with other kids so as not to develop social problems later on in life.
Furthermore, I now know quite a few people who were educated in a private Christian school and they are fine people with a passion for God. At the same time, there are plenty of people I know who went through the public education system and are just as fine.
Of course. Public schools don't make you less of a Christian; Christian schools don't make you more of one. But I think I'm a much stronger Christian for having gone to Christian schools for 12 of my 13 years in primary and secondary school. But yes, I know lots of public school products who are strong, mature Christians (you come to mind :)) and even more Christian school kids who are sheltered (a few) or lukewarm (many)."He says he views the issue as one of 'spiritual blindness,' noting that roughly 85 percent of Christians send their children to government schools.
'If you had a congregation where 85 percent of the people had a drug problem or an adultery problem, you'd hear about it from the pulpit,' he said, 'and yet in most churches right now, this is an issue that's not discussed.'"
The comparison of Christian parents sending their kids to public school to a drug problem or adultery is very off and somewhat offensive I feel. For reasons stated above, I do not think parents are disobeying God by sending their kids to public school.
You're right, that is overly harsh. But I do think the underlying issue that I raised above, that of Christianity accomodating to modern secularism, is one of the largest concerns the Western Church faces.Yea so as a whole, I must say I soundly disagree with what the SBC is saying. Timmy, I'm sure your not surprised at my stance and I will be the first to admit that having been educated in the public school sustem my whole life until going to Redeemer, I am biased. However, there are benefits to both styles of education and to just say Christian children should go to Christian schools is a pretty big statement that ignores a lot of factors such as monetary issues and such.
Yes, the monetary issue is large. But if the Church as a whole decided that most of our kids should be in Christian schools, we would be able to do it. Government money in the form of vouchers would help (and also be more just than the current system) but it looks like that's not going to happen on a large scale in North America: here in Michigan, a coalition of teachers' union/lefty types and, I hate to say, Christian school parents who didn't want poor kids in their schools, pulled down a 2:1 defeat of a voucher referendum.From my own personal experience, I am glad that I was also exposed to the world and made a lot of non-Christian friends because once you are educated, you must live in the world and interact with non-Christians, especially if you are to evangelize which is what we are all called to do. Now I know many students who were educated in Christian schools were not just inside the Christian bubble and were exposed to the world and have non-Christian friends. You would probably argue that it is up to the parent to make sure their child is not just kept in the Christian bubble. But in the same way that there is an expectation for those parents to make sure their child is not sheltered, I think there is an expectation for parents of publicly educated Christians to make sure their child is brought up in a biblical manner with sound biblical teaching. If we can allow the first type of parents to meet that expectation, I don't see why we cannot allow the second type of parents to do so as well.
And I'll say that Christian education isn't merely a matter of learning the Catechism or Bible stories or Christian moral law; Christian education should influence what and what manner History, English, Science and every other subject is taught in.Posted by: Tim at May 10, 2004 12:22 AM
These are very interesting points that both of you raise....I agree with you Tim that Christianity accomodating to modern secularism is one of the largest concerns the Western Church faces. This is what the entirety of INT 121 was about (pretty much), and it is something that is just as dangerous as adultery or drug addictions. It is a very tough issue to decide whether or not to attend a secular elementary/secondary school or university. I wouldn't tell you I think it's a bad thing...but that said, I don't think that I would attend a secular university because I think it is so important to establish the Christian worldview rooted in the person of Jesus Christ before we engage in and evangelize to the world. Obviously you don't have to have everything figured out, because that's impossible, but I think that the foundation definitely needs to be there.
Posted by: Joel Haas at May 10, 2004 12:39 AMI think there is a difference between university which is higher level education and grade school. I would agree Joel that is very important at the university level to establish the Christian worldview and that is why I am glad I am at Redeemer, but again I don't think it is necessary to attend a Christian institution.
Timmy in your response, you brought up the point about relativism and religious neutrality and it is a valid point to some degree. I think though that it is important to hear other points of view even if you don't hold to them. It doesn't mean you are being corrupted, it just means your are more informed as to the other views in this world which helps you relate to non-Christians better. For example, in grade 11 I had an Ancient Civs class where we first spent a unit discussing evolution and various related items. Listening to that didn't cause me to doubt creation but instead I was glad to hear about the evolution view since I did not know too much about it. In comparison, one of my friends who was taking the same course in a private Christian high school skipped that unit and does that mean they are the better for it? Well I don't know but I do know I'm not the worse for having had heard all the various views throughout my education in grade school.
Posted by: Jehan at May 10, 2004 04:25 PMI definitely agree, Jehan, that it is good (and VERY beneficial to our witness) that we know about the beliefs and viewpoints of others. This allows us to know where they are coming from and helps challenge us to study and learn about our viewpoint more thoroughly. I think that in order to learn about other viewpoints thoroughly and to use them in witness, it is very important to know about the world from a Christian perspective first. I agree that it can be a good thing to go to a secular university and learn about their perspectives, but you need to be solid enough in your understanding of the bible/Christianity to critique these perspectives (and not be swayed by them). Evolution and science aren't so subtle (we realize that there IS a God, and that he is the one upholding the creation with His Word....without whom nothing could exist (scientifically)) is one thing, but learning about business and psychology and sociology and art from a humanist perspective may be much more subtle than we would care to realize.....especially to a person that doesn't understand the underlying idolatry, and who doesn't know their bible well enough to relate it to these topics...
I would think it totally depends on the person... the bible talks about the weak and the strong in Romans...one man's faith may be able to eat certain foods (or learn from certain secular perspective) but another man's faith may not be strong enough...
I even know a few Christians...one specifically who wasn't very strong in his faith (or at least didn't really know his bible very well) and doesn't see much (if anything) outrageous or wrong in what he's learning. It is just fact to him (because he's gone to public school all his life), because he doesn't know much about how all of life (including the science and other courses he's taking) is under Christ's Lordship. It is normal to learn about these courses with no mention of God at all (unless it is a negative comment about Him).
Posted by: Joel Haas at May 11, 2004 09:32 AMI definitely agree that we should learn about opposing views; in my school we discussed evolution, and it's a good thing that we did. A lot of the criticism that I have for public schools goes for Christian schools as well; it's not enough for a school to be funded privately by Christians if the only difference between it and the public schools is a Bible class or saying the Pledge of Allegiance with the phrase 'under God' (in the US of course ;)) or whatever.
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